Linnets' Fans' Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: westlynnmike on December 24, 2019, 06:43:54 PM

Title: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: westlynnmike on December 24, 2019, 06:43:54 PM
Political and Racist Opinions should have their own Post and not tagged onto a different subject.

Quote from Stan on another Post:

"I hope Lynn win but I won't be at the match or any Lynn match in the future. During the last game, at home to Dover a comment was made to one of their substitutes from the crowd. The player looked at the crowd and someone shouted: " Hey, we've had Brexit now!" Many laughed; the player in question looked extremely uncomfortable. Needless to say, the Dover player was black. During the game another black Dover player was taunted continually throughout the game. No specific reference was made of an overtly racist nature but there was probably implicit racism in the taunts.
So, I've mulled this over for days and have decided - this is very difficult as I love supporting Lynn - not to attend any more games. I don't want to be in an environment where such attitudes are common.
So, I wish the team well and anyone who I've peed off on here, many apologies and happy Christmas!"   :scarf: :scarf: :scarf:





You are quite right to object to any racist comments by fans at any football game.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: MARCUS ROSE on December 24, 2019, 06:59:45 PM
Hmm Merry Christmas Stan.  Fair play for standing up and speaking out. Your stance is commendable. But why wait nearly 2 weeks before speaking out. I would like to think, after reporting the incidents, you have been waiting for the club to conduct their investigations, before going public. But I fear I am wrong. I am not that clever Stan, only got CSE's. So can you explain the difference between "overtly racist nature &  implicit racism"  I fear this is a very badly timed, look at me attention seeking type of post. Which is designed to rock the boat.

 
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: Stan on December 24, 2019, 07:12:08 PM
Hmm Merry Christmas Stan.  Fair play for standing up and speaking out. Your stance is commendable. But why wait nearly 2 weeks before speaking out. I would like to think, after reporting the incidents, you have been waiting for the club to conduct their investigations, before going public. But I fear I am wrong. I am not that clever Stan, only got CSE's. So can you explain the difference between "overtly racist nature &  implicit racism"  I fear this is a very badly timed, look at me attention seeking type of post. Which is designed to rock the boat.


Don't be a wally Marcus. You can't report an incident unless you know who committed it, surely?  It was just a comment from the crowd. I've waited because I wasn't sure. There's nothing sinister about the timing. I suppose I have only just made up my mind. I think it's sad that you feel that calling out racism is politically motivated. Do you feel that Spurs challenge to the sports minister has a similar intention. Isn't it curious that someone who calls out racism gets attacked!
Strange old times!
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: KES80 on December 24, 2019, 07:12:14 PM
This is a society issue more than a football one and I suspect that it rears its head more when there are large groups of people together, because the perpetrators think they can get away with it. If the people next to the individual react in the right way by condemning the comment or informing a steward, it will nip it in the bud quickly. Everyone at the ground and in Society in general has a responsibility and duty to help stamp it out. From a personal point of view, turning one's back on the situation or simply not turning up isn't a positive move and doesn't improve the situation.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: MARCUS ROSE on December 24, 2019, 07:22:04 PM
Stan it was you who mixed racism with politics not me. So don't call me out after your political references have been removed by the moderators.  So Merry Christmas "wally" :cheers:
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: Stan on December 24, 2019, 07:29:59 PM
Stan it was you who mixed racism with politics not me. So don't call me out after your political references have been removed by the moderators.  So Merry Christmas "wally" :cheers:
No Marcus. It was the fan who called out to the black player:" Hey, we've got Brexit now!" who mixed racism and politics, 24 hours after an election. It's amazing how people who call out racism get more abuse than the racists.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: MARCUS ROSE on December 24, 2019, 08:22:35 PM
Stan it was you who mixed racism with politics not me. So don't call me out after your political references have been removed by the moderators.  So Merry Christmas "wally" :cheers:
No Marcus. It was the fan who called out to the black player:" Hey, we've got Brexit now!" who mixed racism and politics, 24 hours after an election. It's amazing how people who call out racism get more abuse than the racists.

 "I think it's sad that you feel that calling out racism is politically motivated"  Make your mind up Stan.   :dontknow:


Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: dillydilly on December 24, 2019, 08:24:58 PM
Unfortunately for our society, racism is political.  It has been a national societal problem for a very long time, and itís completely unfair to blame football.  It is a fact, however, that there are an unacceptable number of racists who cause problems within football.  The comment shouted from our terraces, or wherever, was an unfortunate but common example of an ignorance which abounds in our current society.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: Loughborough Linnet on December 24, 2019, 09:05:25 PM
Unfortunately for our society, racism is political.  It has been a national societal problem for a very long time, and itís completely unfair to blame football.  It is a fact, however, that there are an unacceptable number of racists who cause problems within football.  The comment shouted from our terraces, or wherever, was an unfortunate but common example of an ignorance which abounds in our current society.

Racism is always political, just that some donít appreciate the breadth of politics. If you want to learn more about this the classic Ďblue eyes, brown eyesí experiment is freely available on YouTube.

Not having seen this particular incident, I canít comment directly on it, but it does tie in to wider theme noticed by many people Iíve spoken to at games recently is the the Walks just isnít as pleasant a place to spend a Saturday afternoon as it used to be. Weíve been reported to the FA quite a fee times in the last few years for fan behaviour (home and away) and there has been an increase in offensive behaviour. Not booing or the odd bit of swearing, Iím not suggesting their should be crowd of choirboys, but abuse. Iíve mentioned before that I donít watch away games anymore because of this, and fortunately where I sit in the stand, such things get called out, and invariably the individuals arenít there the following week; I guess they go elsewhere.

People should remember that they watching a game at the end of the day.

I am slightly worried about Thursday, as in the past itís been at the big games where Lynn has shown its worst side, and with the local derby aspect, I am having doubts about taking my son to the match.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: KES80 on December 24, 2019, 10:29:48 PM
Yes, it's vital that this game goes off without crowd incidents of any kind, given the problems earlier in the season and the fact that there are big games to follow. Do hope the club invest sufficiently in stewards and police and re emphasize their zero tolerance policy before the game in the media and at the ground.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: m a hill on December 24, 2019, 10:42:26 PM
I must be thick but I canít get where saying (weíve got Bexit done now )is a a racist statement
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: Loughborough Linnet on December 25, 2019, 01:06:01 AM
I must be thick but I canít get where saying (weíve got Bexit done now )is a a racist statement

Context. Why would it be shouted at an opposition player if it wasnít meant as some form of insult? Banter being unlikely as it doesnít really fit, and lacks the wit to form such, unless part of an unreported longer exchange.

And taking that (which you may dispute, though Iíd be inclined to see how,) what insult could be meant? Either they thought the opposition player had voted against it, and therefore there was sense of triumph in the comment; unlikely. Or it stems from one of the phrases linked to Brexit, of taking back control of immigration, and therefore is an oblique reference along the lines of the old fashioned racist jibe relating to Ďown country.í That would be the racist element Stan is referring to.

Before I get a backlash saying that Iím saying Brexit is intrinsically racist, Iím not. However shouting about it at a BAME opposition player probably is, or at least will be construed as such.

I could be wrong, and am open to considering alternative interpretations of events, if anyone cares to put them forward.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: kenny r on December 25, 2019, 10:44:46 AM
Hopefully we are getting to the stage where players of both teams will simply walk off the field if racist chants or actions are heard. It is then down to the civilised members of the crowd to identify the abusers so that action can be taken against them.
 I have read that the PFA are now talking seriously about what should happen but again it will be made necessary by the complete inaction of the football authorities at all levels.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: dillydilly on December 25, 2019, 12:18:06 PM
Very surprised that ďweíve done Brexit nowĒ, shouted at a black player, can be questioned as to whether or not it is racist.  It canít be defined as anything else, even if it was said in ignorance or error.  As to whether Brexit was racist, I feel that not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists are Leave voters.  And, again only my honest opinion, I think virtually all of the brexit referendum campaign was about immigration and the feelings it induced one way or another.  I donít actually believe such calls from football terraces are always racist, hopefully including the call in question,  as they sometimes  emanate from a lack of understanding of the connection, albeit an astonishing lack, to be truthful.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: Blue_and_Gold on December 25, 2019, 12:51:19 PM
.............but all racists are Leave voters.

Not so sure about that. Maybe it depends on if you regard people who are anti-Semitic as being racist.   :dontknow:

I agree that a big part of the referendum was about immigration, but not "virtually all". IMHO,  I think people's dislike (fear?) of Corbyn also played a major part in the result.

I'm at a loss why people should link Immigration to Racism. Chalk and Cheese. One has nothing to do with the other.
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: dillydilly on December 25, 2019, 04:16:05 PM
Are you really lost as to why immigration is linked to racism ?  Not saying it always is, but canít see why you would be ďat a loss ď ..?!?....  As regards the ďanti-semitismĒ issue - The problem with that is the anti-Israel versus anti- Jewishness argument, not about real racism at all, unless it comes from a racist stand-point.  There is no such differential in the case of real racism, which is surely about prejudice against colour, religion, nationality, etc...  Anyway, racism is a problem in society, not merely football. Let us pray, no less, that there is no crowd trouble tomorrow, for whatever reason......
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: Blue_and_Gold on December 25, 2019, 08:07:10 PM
Are you really lost as to why immigration is linked to racism ?  Not saying it always is, but canít see why you would be ďat a loss ď ..?!?....  As regards the ďanti-semitismĒ issue - The problem with that is the anti-Israel versus anti- Jewishness argument, not about real racism at all, unless it comes from a racist stand-point.  There is no such differential in the case of real racism, which is surely about prejudice against colour, religion, nationality, etc...  Anyway, racism is a problem in society, not merely football. Let us pray, no less, that there is no crowd trouble tomorrow, for whatever reason......


Just because the majority of people in the UK want stricter border control and stricter immigration laws does not mean they are racist. I'm sure their major concerns are with security issues and the financial cost of having an open door policy. Changing the laws on immigration has nothing to do with racism. So yes, I am lost as to why you link Immigration to Racism.

Your post said all racists voted leave, but also that real racism is about prejudice against colour, religion, nationality. Can't have it both ways. The anti Semites that were in the news during the recent election were mostly (if not all) remoaners, so would not have voted leave.

I agree that racism is a society problem, not just a football one.


Did anyone other than the original poster actually hear the "we've got Brexit now"comment?
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: dillydilly on December 25, 2019, 09:51:29 PM
Weíll have to agree to differ on this, but I didnít say all those who wanted stricter immigration and security are racist.  Indeed I said the opposite, that not all Leave voters are racist, which agrees with your point.  The anti-Semite angle is more complicated.  All I want to ensure is that our crowd donít engage in racist comments, even non-racist but derogatory comments, aimed at opposing fans or players, firstly because I find it offensive, and also because it could easily land the club in trouble to spoil this excellent season.  Gary Neville May have been a failure at his first management position in Spain, but he is talking the most sense on this touchy subject, IMHO....
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: Stan on December 26, 2019, 09:39:28 AM
Are you really lost as to why immigration is linked to racism ?  Not saying it always is, but canít see why you would be ďat a loss ď ..?!?....  As regards the ďanti-semitismĒ issue - The problem with that is the anti-Israel versus anti- Jewishness argument, not about real racism at all, unless it comes from a racist stand-point.  There is no such differential in the case of real racism, which is surely about prejudice against colour, religion, nationality, etc...  Anyway, racism is a problem in society, not merely football. Let us pray, no less, that there is no crowd trouble tomorrow, for whatever reason......


 The anti Semites that were in the news during the recent election were mostly (if not all) remoaners, so would not have voted leave.




Did anyone other than the original poster actually hear the "we've got Brexit now"comment?

A couple of points. B & G:
Firstly, another poster a couple of weeks ago made a reference to the issue of anti-Semitism and it was deleted by the moderator. Do you not have to abide by the same rules?
Secondly, why ask whether anyone else heard the remark?
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: Blue_and_Gold on December 26, 2019, 10:42:44 AM
Weíll have to agree to differ on this, but I didnít say all those who wanted stricter immigration and security are racist.  Indeed I said the opposite, that not all Leave voters are racist, which agrees with your point.  The anti-Semite angle is more complicated.  All I want to ensure is that our crowd donít engage in racist comments, even non-racist but derogatory comments, aimed at opposing fans or players, firstly because I find it offensive, and also because it could easily land the club in trouble to spoil this excellent season.  Gary Neville May have been a failure at his first management position in Spain, but he is talking the most sense on this touchy subject, IMHO....

As you say, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. However, I know you didn't say all those that wanted stricter immigration controls were racist, and I don't believe I said you did.
What you said is all racists voted leave, which is where I disagree with you due the activities and lack of response to anti semitism within a major political party, that campaigned to stay in the EU  (i.e. clearly racist but voted remain).
Title: Re: Political and Racist Issues
Post by: Mallard on December 26, 2019, 01:37:10 PM
Fingers crossed in every shape and form that today is about two decent non League Footballing sides, and nothing more.