The Future

[Mallard]

Seemingly it looks like Stephen Cleeve tenure at the Club is coming to end.  It really leaves an uncertain future.  However we have been here before and bounced back. 

If the Club goes pop in the New Year it will of course clear all the debt but come with a two tier League deduction that will see us fall back to Step 4 ( or even Step 5).  Once we are back at this level it will give the Club a chance to reform.  Would like to see a more local Manager and a squad that is locally based.  I seem to recall Setch worked on a budget of around £3k a week x 40 weeks gives a total playing budget of £120k  That seems more in line with self sustainability.

Be good to see a full board of directors take the Club on.  There will of course be a few uncertainties.  Like is the Ground lease in SC’s name or in the Clubs name ?    Then again is the £400/£500k loan secured against the lease.

Certainly going to be an interesting New Year. However the future could look very bright, going forward with the right infrastructure put in place.

What do others think ?

[TonyM]

For me, the saddest thing surrounding the past week is the lack of supporters 'rallying round' or there being any visible evidence of fans wanting to try and help turn things around.  Before I get the obvious comments, I am fully aware of SC's track record and I would prefer the thread didn't degenerate into a catalogue of his mistakes and missed opportunities (I could probably contribute a fair number) but now is not the time or place. 

Whilst we are not as big as Darlington or Chester we do have a loyal supporter base and a much wider group of people who are interested / look out for the results even if they are not regulars at the Walks, whatever comes out of this current turmoil, I really do hope they are put at the heart of it.

[rod]

Seemingly it looks like Stephen Cleeve tenure at the Club is coming to end.  It really leaves an uncertain future.  However we have been here before and bounced back. 

If the Club goes pop in the New Year it will of course clear all the debt but come with a two tier League deduction that will see us fall back to Step 4 ( or even Step 5).  Once we are back at this level it will give the Club a chance to reform.  Would like to see a more local Manager and a squad that is locally based.  I seem to recall Setch worked on a budget of around £3k a week x 40 weeks gives a total playing budget of £120k  That seems more in line with self sustainability.

Be good to see a full board of directors take the Club on.  There will of course be a few uncertainties.  Like is the Ground lease in SC’s name or in the Clubs name ?    Then again is the £400/£500k loan secured against the lease.

Certainly going to be an interesting New Year. However the future could look very bright, going forward with the right infrastructure put in place.

What do others think ?

Mallard: well said. An opportunity to build a genuine community based and connected club. I believe that more than a few who have stopped attending games will return and that additional local sponsorship opportunities will emerge.

[Colin Fuller]

I don’t know Mr Cleeve and living outside of the county it is not so easy to gauge opinion about his tenure at Lynn. But I would judge from comments in the past and continually on this forum that a fair percentage of supporters have not trusted his leadership. Therefore it is possibly not surprising a lack of rallying from fans is apparent.
He has taken Lynn down this route in the vain hope of Football League status without the infrastructure being in place to support it. A club like Lynn must surely have a thriving commercial income to support match-day revenue. I have seen several times an appeal on Twitter X, by the owner, for match sponsorship, just a day or two before a forthcoming home game.
The club has been really poor at keeping fans abreast of what is happening, whether on the financial side or the football side. Is Mr Cleeve telling all even now?
The situation appears dire and virtually beyond rescue. One lesson to be learned if Lynn fold and eventually return as a new enterprise. No single person should be allowed to own the name of Lynn Football Club.  It is the supporters who own the heart of any football club.

[Blue_and_Gold]

I don’t know Mr Cleeve and living outside of the county it is not so easy to gauge opinion about his tenure at Lynn. But I would judge from comments in the past and continually on this forum that a fair percentage of supporters have not trusted his leadership. Therefore it is possibly not surprising a lack of rallying from fans is apparent.
He has taken Lynn down this route in the vain hope of Football League status without the infrastructure being in place to support it. A club like Lynn must surely have a thriving commercial income to support match-day revenue. I have seen several times an appeal on Twitter X, by the owner, for match sponsorship, just a day or two before a forthcoming home game.
The club has been really poor at keeping fans abreast of what is happening, whether on the financial side or the football side. Is Mr Cleeve telling all even now?
The situation appears dire and virtually beyond rescue. One lesson to be learned if Lynn fold and eventually return as a new enterprise. No single person should be allowed to own the name of Lynn Football Club.  It is the supporters who own the heart of any football club.

Nutshell.

[Pink]

Well Mall, firstly I hope a way out can be found.....so much energy has gone into the last 4/5 years.

If it doesn't happen and the club folds step 4/5 is probably the highest the club can afford to be. I think your old figures for Setch, don't really apply any more.....we have had Covid and a cost of living crisis since then.....so probably 2/2.5 times that figure required to stand still at step 4, I would guess.

I think people need to think very carefully about what they wish for. Tony, building on the point you raise, I don't believe at this juncture ie if the club folded tomorrow, that there is enough support in the Community, to make a Community run Club at even step 4 work. Many people like to hark back to times gone by on here, but many of us are close to or at retirement age and it needs a lot of young blood and young money to make things work...I am not sure where that will come from. King's Lynn is not a football town, like a Darlington for example....or even a Scarborough for that matter, when you compare attendances.


Fourteen years ago, it seemed time to get shot of the old ground. I-know there were plans in some quarters for the possibility of something at Saddlebow. Now that the Council is considering a 4g facility, maybe finally a Community Stadium can be built with grass pitches and 4g facility alongside, for use by both the general public and the club on match and training days.

[Mallard]

I didn’t intend to set this thread up as let’s all throw the solids at SC and his tenure but more looking to the future. 

Tony, IF ( a big IF) there was a massive rallying call and the fans managed to help SC limp through to the end of the season what tells us that we wouldn’t be sitting in exactly the same situation this time next year ?   You didn’t need a crystal ball to see this coming.

Pink, I don’t imagine the likes of Wroxham, Gorleston or even Lowestoft are shelling out £7k a week on players wages.  Lowestoft have been down this road before and suffered the pain.  All three of these teams are going ok for their ambitions at step 4.  18 men squads at £400 a head seems a bit heavy to me.  Though I stand to be corrected on that.

[Blue_and_Gold]

Surely Clubs are Community based or they are not? 

Nothing in between is there?

If that's the case, the next Phoenix Club has the choice of something along the lines of what we have now (if anyone is even interested), or something they can really get behind and have a real involvement in. A Club that's truly at the heart of the community.

Funding a competitive side?

Play at the highest level the club can afford to play at by the income it generates from gates and commercial activity. That way the supporters are getting exactly what they are prepared to contribute to the Club (financially and otherwise). Nothing more, nothing less.

The Club should then find its own level.

[Pink]

Surely Clubs are Community based or they are not? 

Nothing in between is there?

If that's the case, the next Phoenix Club has the choice of something along the lines of what we have now (if anyone is even interested), or something they can really get behind and have a real involvement in. A Club that's truly at the heart of the community.

Funding a competitive side?

Play at the highest level the club can afford to play at by the income it generates from gates and commercial activity. That way the supporters are getting exactly what they are prepared to contribute to the Club (financially and otherwise). Nothing more, nothing less.

The Club should then find its own level.

I am not sure it's quite as simple as that in reality.

Historically fans in Lynn turn up to watch a winning, successful side.

Let's say that Lynn's natural level for the first few years is Thurlow Nunn Premier or one tier above. Lynn's side wins promotion, but it is declined as it's a step too far and the club can't afford it. Same happens next season. Is everyone happy to still come along and support, even though there is no likelihood of progression ? It requires a big change in psyche for some folk.

If SC 's tenure does come to an end in 2024 and no one else takes the club on, then I would prefer to see a Community based club emerge........just seems to me that it will have lots of things that need to be ironed out, so that members of the public know what they are signing up to in terms of expectations, club progression, limitations etc. Otherwise I can see lots of disharmony, creation of different factions etc.

I can't ever remember a time when there hasn't been huge dissatisfaction from some people, with whoever is running the club. Even with a Community based club, there will have to be a focal point/leader/spokesperson to deliver the votes on issues and offer explanations to the public and he or she will need broad shoulders.

[TonyM]

...I think people need to think very carefully about what they wish for. Tony, building on the point you raise, I don't believe at this juncture ie if the club folded tomorrow, that there is enough support in the Community, to make a Community run Club at even step 4 work. Many people like to hark back to times gone by on here, but many of us are close to or at retirement age and it needs a lot of young blood and young money to make things work...I am not sure where that will come from. King's Lynn is not a football town, like a Darlington for example....or even a Scarborough for that matter, when you compare attendances.

Pink, I would agree with you that currently there isn't the appetite within the fan base to make a 100% owned supporter run club viable at any sort of level but equally the sole benefactor model hasn't gone well since reformation (stagnated under Buster as he realised he couldn't make money at step 3 then the boom/bust gamble model adopted by SC).  I would also agree that King's Lynn isn't a traditional football town but still think there is a wide enough catchment area to be viable at step 3 (maybe step 2 in time) with a mixed ownership model.  Age of fanbase might be seen as a hinderance but equally there are plenty of untapped skills within those at or close to retirement age that could be utilised.

Fourteen years ago, it seemed time to get shot of the old ground. I-know there were plans in some quarters for the possibility of something at Saddlebow. Now that the Council is considering a 4g facility, maybe finally a Community Stadium can be built with grass pitches and 4g facility alongside, for use by both the general public and the club on match and training days.

Would love to see a new facility within the town which had the club at it's heart but the Council always seems to have had 'problem tenants' at the Walks and I am not sure spending lots of taxpayer cash (can't expect it all to come from national grants) on what is of interest to a minority of voters is what they would be looking to do in the near future.

[TonyM]

Surely Clubs are Community based or they are not? 

Nothing in between is there?

If that's the case, the next Phoenix Club has the choice of something along the lines of what we have now (if anyone is even interested), or something they can really get behind and have a real involvement in. A Club that's truly at the heart of the community.

Funding a competitive side?

Play at the highest level the club can afford to play at by the income it generates from gates and commercial activity. That way the supporters are getting exactly what they are prepared to contribute to the Club (financially and otherwise). Nothing more, nothing less.

The Club should then find its own level.

I am not sure it's quite as simple as that in reality.

Historically fans in Lynn turn up to watch a winning, successful side.

Let's say that Lynn's natural level for the first few years is Thurlow Nunn Premier or one tier above. Lynn's side wins promotion, but it is declined as it's a step too far and the club can't afford it. Same happens next season. Is everyone happy to still come along and support, even though there is no likelihood of progression ? It requires a big change in psyche for some folk.

If SC 's tenure does come to an end in 2024 and no one else takes the club on, then I would prefer to see a Community based club emerge........just seems to me that it will have lots of things that need to be ironed out, so that members of the public know what they are signing up to in terms of expectations, club progression, limitations etc. Otherwise I can see lots of disharmony, creation of different factions etc.

I can't ever remember a time when there hasn't been huge dissatisfaction from some people, with whoever is running the club. Even with a Community based club, there will have to be a focal point/leader/spokesperson to deliver the votes on issues and offer explanations to the public and he or she will need broad shoulders.

Fair points and I don't think anyone who is involved at clubs that have some sort of supporter ownership would suggest it is easy.  I appreciate some people like the buck stopping with a sole individual and everything is black and white but the truth is that well run organisations (be they business, governments or football clubs) tend to be those that have 'good people' in a number of areas each doing their bit for a greater common goal. 

All I would really say to counter your disharmony, factions point is that an club with supporter representation is likely to have better lines of communication with fans than one that doesn't.  Obviously there are examples of good and bad across all ownership models but I think that would be a widely supported view, so whilst it wouldn't stop factions forming the hope would be that clear information would minimise any expectation gaps.

[Blue_and_Gold]

Surely Clubs are Community based or they are not? 

Nothing in between is there?

If that's the case, the next Phoenix Club has the choice of something along the lines of what we have now (if anyone is even interested), or something they can really get behind and have a real involvement in. A Club that's truly at the heart of the community.

Funding a competitive side?

Play at the highest level the club can afford to play at by the income it generates from gates and commercial activity. That way the supporters are getting exactly what they are prepared to contribute to the Club (financially and otherwise). Nothing more, nothing less.

The Club should then find its own level.

[quote author=Pink link=topic=8172.msg96322#msg96322 date=1702824061
I am not sure it's quite as simple as that in reality.

Historically fans in Lynn turn up to watch a winning, successful side.

I don't think thats unique to Lynn. At the moment, fan involvement seems to end each week when the final whistle blows. With a Community based Club thetes a chance for the fsns to engage other tham match days.



[quote author=Pink link=topic=8172.msg96322#msg96322 date=1702824061

Let's say that Lynn's natural level for the first few years is Thurlow Nunn Premier or one tier above. Lynn's side wins promotion, but it is declined as it's a step too far and the club can't afford it. Same happens next season. Is everyone happy to still come along and support, even though there is no likelihood of progression ? It requires a big change in psyche for some folk.

[/quote]

Well it's happened before with club's not a million miles from here, and they are still going strong. As said, playing at a level the income would support. That will depend on the effort and contribution (financial and otherwise) that the supporters provide. I'm sure that there will be a few that would complain in this scenario (i.e. gaining promotion but not taking it), but you will always get some that expect people such as Cleeve to subsidise their Saturday entertainment.  IF that occured, would supporters attitudes be any different than if the club suffered a relegation? I doubt it, and certainly not as bad if they were to go belly up yet again.

If SC 's tenure does come to an end in 2024 and no one else takes the club on, then I would prefer to see a Community based club emerge........just seems to me that it will have lots of things that need to be ironed out, so that members of the public know what they are signing up to in terms of expectations, club progression, limitations etc. Otherwise I can see lots of disharmony, creation of different factions etc.

Surely that just involves being honest from day one, and it would be the supporters that ultimately decide upon the expectations anyway.

[quote author=Pink link=topic=8172.msg96322#msg96322 date=1702824061
I can't ever remember a time when there hasn't been huge dissatisfaction from some people, with whoever is running the club. Even with a Community based club, there will have to be a focal point/leader/spokesperson to deliver the votes on issues and offer explanations to the public and he or she will need broad shoulders.
[/quote]

Well, yes. That's football!

Of course, there are ways to mitigate a lot of dissatisfaction from supporters, such as regular and honest communication, not insulting the clubs supporters, or becoming involved with on line/social network arguing with your clubs or other clubs supporters.

[Blue_and_Gold]

.....I don't believe at this juncture ie if the club folded tomorrow, that there is enough support in the Community, to make a Community run Club at even step 4 work. Many people like to hark back to times gone by on here, but many of us are close to or at retirement age and it needs a lot of young blood and young money to make things work...I am not sure where that will come from.

I'm not sure that we can say if there's enough support at level 4 or not. I don't think anyone can say one way or another at the moment. Personally I think theres a better chance that there is than isn't, but there are so many contributing factors involved such as demographics, the damage that's been done to the fan base recently, etc.

Whatever level a new club would play at, it needs to be at a level it can afford. That means the level the fans are willing to support it at, both financially and otherwise, and without any financial doping. If that's below step 4 (doubtful) then so be it.

I honestly believe those that think financial doping is the way to run a football club, and getting a benefactor to subsidise their Saturday afternoons entertainment, are in the minority in King's Lynn. For those that still believe that's the way forward, where do they think they are going to find this "white knight"?

Yes, the Club needs young blood to come forward, with vigour and energy. As said, many supporters  are approaching or have already reached retirement age. A new Club also needs to ensure its all inclusive, and not just select from a small band who's main attribute would appear to be never to disagree with a Chairman. It's healthy to have people who will challenge old and pre-conceived ideas. That's where new ideas come from.

Lynn's had a football Club for well over 100 years. It will always have a football Club. The road has been full of bumps over the years, and it's just another bump at the moment (even if it's a big bump) Maybe a bit different this time as  many have said for a long time, "not if, but when", so not such a surprise to many as it was before.

However, let's not get ahead of ourselves. At the moment Cleeve is still battling and  Lynn FC still has a pulse.

It's not over until the fat lady sings.

 

[northwootton]

I think SC must be in cloud cuckoo land. Who does he think would “invest” £50,000 or £60,000 a month in a failing debt-ridden business.  I think the fat lady is about to sing, and who, I wonder will SC blame for that. Oh yes, I forgot, it’s always the fans fault. I think SC should look in the mirror where he will see exactly what the problem is and maybe reflect on his past failed businesses.

[Mallard]

Does it matter about blame and who did what ?   It is what it is now.  Not many can be surprised. 

It has to be about tomorrow not yesterday and where the Club goes from here.

Any investor may look at picking it up once’s it’s at the bottom rather trying to offer a rescue plan as it is at the moment ?   I seem to recall Buster started out with a clean sheet rather than try to pick it up from Bobbins and Chinn mess.